soldiergrrrl: (angry bunny)
[personal profile] soldiergrrrl
I'm currently looking for a website, article, whatever that can help me explain (or at least give me a clue by four to use on some denser online acquaintances) about discussions. Basically, I need something that explains why it's okay to leave discussions about what happens to marginalized groups to those groups and not go cluntering in with your non-marginalized experiences.

I've looked at Derailing For Dummies, and I don't see it addressed specifically.

I'm sick and tired of explaining to someone why I don't CARE what his experiences are as a man dealing with rape or sexual assault and harassment, but rather I'm interested in how it affects women and women only. If I try to shut down the discussion, I'm accused of being closed minded and not willing to see that there are two sides to every issue. *eyeroll*

This man simply doesn't get that his experiences are tangential, not welcome and quite frankly, demeaning.


(And if anyone posts "But what about teh menz????" in response to this, I will simply delete the response. I'm not joking about this and I don't need this derailed into why I don't want to discuss and validate the experience of men. PERIOD.)

Date: 2011-11-12 01:55 pm (UTC)
ext_173469: Quoted text: "If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off." (hiding)
From: [identity profile]
Sorry. Spent too many years working an incest/rape hotline to be able to segregate against which victims can and can't be focussed on.

I don't even have a suggestion as to where you could go to find such things. All the crisis links I had are either expired, or focus on victims of all genders and ages.

Wish I could be of more help, even if this does get me banned from your journal.

Date: 2011-11-12 01:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Piffle. I'm just frustrated because I can't get him to understand that there are times when I don't need to be told that women's rape isn't that bad because men's rape happens too.

Victims of all ages and genders are important, but just as it's inappropriate for me to discuss my maginalization as a woman when a POC is talking, it's inappropriate for a man to marginalize my experiences because well, it happens to men too.

Does that make sense?

Date: 2011-11-12 02:19 pm (UTC)
ext_173469: Quoted text: "If the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off." (Puddinhead)
From: [identity profile]
Okay, that I can work with.

For starters, you can start with necessity of experience - nobody wants to learn, for example, how to ride a motorcycle from someone who can't even propel a tricycle without falling over.

If I'm reading your post correctly, he's giving you the Ahh-ahh-ahh, men have been raped too, and just because it hasn't happened to ME doesn't mean... This is effectively what you're combating against, and that holier-than-thou "it's only because you're <insert possibly demeaning condition>" is precisely what rape does - it demeans and devalues that person. The goal is, after all, not sex, but power and control. In essence, regardless of how well-intended this yutz may be, by overriding your statement, he is raping your conversation and your emotional ties to it as a result.

In fact - if you really want to take it further - what he's doing is in fact the root of many problems and why most people (especially men) don't want to step up and say "Hey, been there": He's trivialising the spear-thrust by opening up the umbrella and saying "You're not so important because it happens to everybody so stop feeling like you're validated." It's what particularly macho-feeling parents (of either gender) say to the kids who have been molested by someone, a family member, a church pastor, someone in uniform, and don't want to make waves in the community.

Ultimately, it's what gets said to everyone who's ever been in that situation. "Hey wow that sucked but it happens all the time so it's no big deal".

Essentially, your...communicant? I wouldn't call him employing all the things that fuel rape, and there are any number of ways to use those in any argument where he brings up the "It's not important because it happens to everybody even men even kids even dogs you don't count" (and in my experience, is typically followed, verbally or not, with and you were asking for it anyway you sissy you slut you bitch you prick you whatever-makes-me-right).

Off to work now, but I'll have the phone.

Hey! You could actually text me!

...if you wanted...

Date: 2011-11-12 02:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Uh. So, you might get a text from me. ;-)

Date: 2011-11-12 01:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I hope this isn't terribly de-raily, but it might provide an alternate search route?

I've noticed that if a support group which is intended for "people with $THING" (where $THING is something that can make a person marginalized) opens its membership up to "people with $THING, and people who are supportive of people with $THING" then over time, what it turns into is a group where the "supportive" people meet and blah-blah about their experiences of being supportive, while the original people the group was intended to give a voice to-- are silenced again, or have to fight for the right to use their own-original group to have a place to speak.

I know this isn't a direct parallel, because if it were, dude would be talking about how his *knowing* women who were assaulted gives him the right to share his views about how their assault affected him. But maybe it's close enough?

Co-opting safe-sharing-space from the people it's meant for in order to "be supportive" and be patted on the back for it... isn't there an architectural term for things that look like supports but aren't?

Date: 2011-11-12 02:01 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Given that I don't know what you've tried, so far.....

"I respect that you have experiences and an opinion about the subject, but right now I am more interested in hearing about direct experiences from those who have gone through the trauma. As your experience does not fall into that category, I will no longer be following this thread or any thread that you contribute to with this experience."

If he hasn't responded to a polite response in the future, just flat out tell him that his experiences aren't giving you the information you're looking for and you'll be ignoring it. If it's a cached thread, you only need to post once and just keep the link on hand, explaining why you aren't interested in the male rape experience, right now.

Sorry you're stuck with the denser sex on this one. It's a hard topic to begin with, and made even worse in situations like this.

Date: 2011-11-12 02:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

I would suggest you start here. I am dealing on uncaffeinated memory at the moment, but I THINK there is something that would be helpful in here somewhere.

How polite do you want to be for your responses to this guy (these guys?)? If you were to thank him for an example of how some people try and minimize the female rape victim's experience, would it a)get the point across, b)stop him from answering for now, and c)not start a war?

Date: 2011-11-12 03:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
It sounds like what he's doing is called "talking over." Basically, instead of leaving the speech to those who have the right to speak in a survivor/victim thread, he's persisting in speechifying, even though he isn't within the range of those welcome in the conversation, going on in such a way that it minimizes/belittles their experience. If he is a survivor he has the right to speak within certain conversations - but not all conversations, and not if it belittles the experience of others, and not to the exclusion of others' speech/experience. If he is not a survivor then he's absolutely silencing survivors and he needs to GTFO.

There's not a parallel between sexual assault/harassment as a male versus as a female, either. If he's a survivor, his experiences are different. They're different in motivation, in the powers at play, in societal perception of victim and aggressor, in whether or not such experiences are fetishized by various points (including mainstream media outlets), in threat level to personal and physical well-being, in so many ways. By comparing his experiences to a woman's and thereby poo-pooing hers as somehow less awful than his, he is deliberately using his privilege in belittling her experience and he needs to STFU and GTFO till he can hold his mouth in a manner to say something that is supportive.

Date: 2011-11-12 03:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
OH boy, facebook? You're gonna make me look.

Those types, I've found when discussing other kinds of abuse, don't really listen to logic, though. They're only concerned with preserving their nice little bubble of "reality."

Date: 2011-11-12 09:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]

Have you tried pointing out nicely that by making the situation all about him (I can't tell from your post if he has been raped/assaulted/harassed, or if he is speaking about how it affected a woman in his life), he is making it more difficult for women who have had it happen to them to speak?

Or I could just come on over with the cluebat...

Date: 2011-11-12 09:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I got nuthin'

Well, actually ... I *can* offer a diagram so they can easily understand.

Edited Date: 2011-11-12 09:35 pm (UTC)

Date: 2011-11-13 12:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
I'm about to do some google hunting, but I swear I recently read a GREAT explanation of privilege that sounds similar to what you're asking for. It was written as the story of a lizard trying to live with...err, I think a sheepdog? Anyway, and how the temperature of the house affected them both. Sounds stupid, but it was a surprisingly accurate portrayal of how marginalization works.

Aha, found it before I hit "post"-- Hope this helps.

Date: 2011-11-13 06:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
Took me a minute but I finally came up with a response.

Tell him he sounds like a civilian saying he knows what PTSD/War/Army life/war injury (what ever will get his goat) is like because he's seen the movies.

That'll shut him down real quick. Or he'll just make a royal ass of himself and make it known to all what a tard he is.

Date: 2011-11-13 07:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile]
depending on how much you like him as a person, you can also say what i said to a (male) friend of mine bitching about the new(ish) lj comm created and targeted to female victims of rape. when he espoused the opinion that they weren't being open enough, i told him 'you've got a right to your opinion, now shut up and move on.'

i like $male friend, but he was kind of putting his foot into it, big time.

that being said, i have a half-thought that a lot of guys trying to take over rape-victim spaces may have been victims themselves, but aren't sure how to approach it. i'm not condoning their behavior, but it makes me wish i/we as a community had a link to point to for *male* victims of rape.

then we as a community could say 'not here. if you need help or support, go here.' i'd feel better if i could point potential victims to a *place to go*. but i don't know any such links anymore, and i are sad about it.



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